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| matt_wire:BarbedWire2:Lord Tony Smith:lefty goldblatt:karetaker:Lord Tony Smith:
That Daryl Powell looks a good coach. We should go after him? Anyone know where Wakey got him from?
Tesco on Winnwick Road after he got dumped outside the HJ stadium. Daryl Powell, you say?Isn't that the fella who brought his USELESS mates from Castleford, and took us 15 minutes from relegation?.....or was that his identical twin? Sorry I must have missed the great job Burgess is doing this season. Bit weird how Powell's had success at every other club though, isn't it? Almost like he wasn't the issue. Success is relative though isn’t it. If Powell makes6th at Wakefield he gets a statue and the big fella gives him credit in the media. If he finished 6th here it’s squeaking into the play offs and another dud season. At Cas, where he was long enough to make a real change, he finished 1st, 3rd, 4th (twice) but finished with 7th and 8th positions. Yes they made finals, and won a hub cap, and that is successful for Castleford but that saw Price chopped here, and he won a cup. I get that some clubs are afforded wiggle room as they are the lowest spenders, but that’s because the clubs are badly run. It’s a capped sport at the top, we play on the same grass, the players are grown, professional sportsmen. Powell’s success has an asterisk. The same level of “success” got him sacked in his second season having completely gutted the club from top to bottom, with literally a handful of players surviving that period. He’s having the year of his life and he’s 4 points ahead of us who are having a shocking season without half of our star players for much of the middle of the year. There was zero, ZERO, evidence that he could do the job here. We were really fortunate to survive that first year. What evidence is there that we'll survive another year of "Slammin (your club into the ground) Sam?! People slag off our club and many call for a root and branch culling of the 'culture'. Seems to me, with hindsight, Powell was the one who came closest to even trying to implement something like that. ... It just wasn't clear if the metaphorical patient would survive the operation! Speaking of hindsight, it is a wonderful thing that allows the naysayers to point and crow that it was never going to work. Alas we will never know. Would anyone here have had the humility to ride out a year or two in the championship in order to bring about a full turnaround? I don't honestly think I would have. It's all just ifs and buts at the end of the day. Well, the evidence of ‘Slamming the club into the ground’ Sam is that he isn’t slamming the club into the ground, at least to those without an agenda against him personally. The grand sum of his coaching career so far is a third placed finish, beaten in the semi of the play offs by one score, reached 2 challenge cup finals from two attempted, granted losing one, and given debuts and serious minutes to academy products like Lindrop, Taylor Wray, Hayes, Irwin, Thomas, Harthill, Jake Thewlis… He has evidenced that he can get a team to win. Although, not consistently this year. There are mitigations to that though, with injuries, disrupted pre season for the intended half back and contract saga’s over both of our best players. Add to that the Vegas disruption. Yes, he has contributed to some of that, as well as some recruitment issues, but his team have taken the field in the only final of the year so far. His predecessor was minutes away from leading the club to irrelevance. We can call out “culture” all we want, but I know for a fact that Wigan and Saints squads all have similar drinking environments. The difference is that they win. Price and Burgess are fit for burning because they haven’t taken us the final step (or final 2 steps for Sam) but Powell wasn’t even on the flipping ladder. It’s a complete nonsense to even consider going into the championship. A complete nonsense. Even as a bad club in the 90’s and 2000’s that would have been unacceptable, but to consider giving Powell a pass on the strength that he loaned out a centre to Wigan and kicked out a few senior pro’s isn’t worth commenting on. We all want to change the culture. But we want a winning culture. Not a culture where if you cross the boss you get paid out and we bring in Sam Kasiano and Greg ruddy Minikin. That’s not good leadership, it’s just a toddler with a cheque book. Nobody can point to anyone, Thewlis aside, who is a better player because of Powell. This forum alone, and the lack of Currie scapegoating, is evidence that Sam can make people play better. I won’t ever give Powell a pass. He had a remit to sweep clean and had to rebuild after a year. The rebuild of the rebuild was a shambles too. Good luck to him at Wakefield, I’m sure he’s a lovely man and a good coach, but he failed here in my opinion. I have more gratitude for Toulouse’s uselessness. | | |
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| Wires71:BarbedWire2:Wires71:BarbedWire2:
Sam might not be the answer, but of the past failures, Smith and Price both did so much more without ever going through the complete collapse of 2022.
One could argue Smith taking us into the bottom 4 playoffs with championship sides was pretty rank. Price was great in his 1st year, and a complete failure in his following three. He has never been a head coach since. Smith, absolutely. He missed the play offs (direct equivalent) and ultimately there was no green shoot of recovery in that team. He paid for it with his job. Price’s ‘failure’ compared to what had come since actually doesn’t look too bad. I’m not advocating for him, and wouldn’t want him back, but from where we were on season debrief of 2021, to where we were at debrief of 2022, proved the point really. We had tantrums about being knocked out at home against Hull Kr in the playoffs, and relied on scraping past Toulouse to remain in the top flight. While this season hasn’t been good enough, and it’s not, we can’t judge former seasons differently because the coach got Cas to a grand final a few years ago and stopped Mike Cooper selling T-shirts. It was a failure, by every metric and almost everyone brought in during that period is now gone, Harrison and Dufty aside (Vaughan at seasons end). And that is actually really haunting, given the list includes but not limited to Minikin, Russell, Matautia, Holmes, Kasiano, Dudson, McGuire, Magoulias, Nicholson, Bullock, Drinkwater, Wardle. Add that to the players that left during that period, Hill, Cooper, Charnley, Widdop, Hughes, Mulhearn, Davis, Clark, Dean, Longstaff… That’s 20+ players gone since Price left in 2022. And I’d argue the second list is a better list of players than the first, 4 of them have gone on to represent England since leaving us as scrap. Fair points. The Powell period was a failure - no argument from me. Im just not sure that equates to Powell is a poor coach and it was all his fault. I think he had an impossible job and lets face it we have been rank now under 4 different coaches. In fact it was only for a limited period under Smith and one year of Price that we were anything like contenders in the last 20 years. Now, if you are an advocate of judging seasons the same and not differently without past influence then you must compare the league performance of Warrington in 2025 with the league performance in 2023 which got Powell the sack. As I have said, we are worse this year than 2023 by every metric (wins/position/points difference) but you give Burgess a pass and focus on how bad Powell was. I’m not saying it is/was all Powell fault, and I don’t expect you to go back through the archives but if you look at the threads of his appointment and dismissal I put a lot of this at the feet of the decision makers at the club. At the time, we were regularly in the top 4, and the job was to unlock that next gear to go the next step and win it. My point then, and still is, on what basis was Powell selected to do that job. The league outputs are similar this season, which is alarming. But in both situations you look at the aggravating and mitigating factors. Sam’s conduct, Vegas and ref moaning have made our season worse, not better. I think that is a fact. Mitigation, huge chunks of salary cap in the stands for the middle of the season (could be a strength & conditioning thing, could be the quality of training facilities) failed to recruit a second row (is this Chambers, did we gamble on Bateman not getting an NRL deal) and a rough schedule (going to Vegas wouldn’t have been Sam’s choice, winnable games after key cup fixtures) plus we actually made a major final. As it stands, Sam has made 2 of 3 available major finals. But still, won nothing. So it’s a mix bag to review at seasons end, but I think a lot of the outcome will depend on the run in. If we shape up and chase down the 6 and make it, I think there is enough to keep him in for next year. If we miss, it’s a close one and I get it if we do sack him. The equivalent of Powell, the disruption in team selection was largely man made, sacking, loaning and hiring his people who were later dropped or moved around, including his assistant (name I can’t even remember, but was replaced by Marshall after 1 year) Major injuries to key positions were not a contributor. There was no Vegas, with a game a week later that you in hindsight needed to in. No cup quarter, semi or final, again with no fixtures the week after that you needed points from. And we’re splitting hairs over table position without those obstacles. Powell also openly criticised Dean and Thewlis, taking Thewlis “out of the firing line” (which he said publicly) against Huddersfield only to pick him again the week after at Wigan. Dean never played again. The reasons/contributors/excuses just aren’t there for Powell. There was not a performance to point to and say “when my plan is played to, we compete against big teams” whereas Sam can do that. And to answer a point from above, it’s not justifying who bad we are now because we’ve been worse. It’s still about who can take us from a plucky “also ran” to a winner. With Williams, Dufty, Sneyd, Walker and Currie all fit next week and beyond, Sam has an opportunity to get a song out of this team and show us and the board that he’s worthy of another year. The ball is in their court now, and by dumb luck alone if we do pick up we could somehow still stumble into the 6 and get a free shot at it with no expectation. | | | |
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| Wires71:BarbedWire2:Wires71:BarbedWire2:
Sam might not be the answer, but of the past failures, Smith and Price both did so much more without ever going through the complete collapse of 2022.
One could argue Smith taking us into the bottom 4 playoffs with championship sides was pretty rank. Price was great in his 1st year, and a complete failure in his following three. He has never been a head coach since. Smith, absolutely. He missed the play offs (direct equivalent) and ultimately there was no green shoot of recovery in that team. He paid for it with his job. Price’s ‘failure’ compared to what had come since actually doesn’t look too bad. I’m not advocating for him, and wouldn’t want him back, but from where we were on season debrief of 2021, to where we were at debrief of 2022, proved the point really. We had tantrums about being knocked out at home against Hull Kr in the playoffs, and relied on scraping past Toulouse to remain in the top flight. While this season hasn’t been good enough, and it’s not, we can’t judge former seasons differently because the coach got Cas to a grand final a few years ago and stopped Mike Cooper selling T-shirts. It was a failure, by every metric and almost everyone brought in during that period is now gone, Harrison and Dufty aside (Vaughan at seasons end). And that is actually really haunting, given the list includes but not limited to Minikin, Russell, Matautia, Holmes, Kasiano, Dudson, McGuire, Magoulias, Nicholson, Bullock, Drinkwater, Wardle. Add that to the players that left during that period, Hill, Cooper, Charnley, Widdop, Hughes, Mulhearn, Davis, Clark, Dean, Longstaff… That’s 20+ players gone since Price left in 2022. And I’d argue the second list is a better list of players than the first, 4 of them have gone on to represent England since leaving us as scrap. Fair points. The Powell period was a failure - no argument from me. Im just not sure that equates to Powell is a poor coach and it was all his fault. I think he had an impossible job and lets face it we have been rank now under 4 different coaches. In fact it was only for a limited period under Smith and one year of Price that we were anything like contenders in the last 20 years. Now, if you are an advocate of judging seasons the same and not differently without past influence then you must compare the league performance of Warrington in 2025 with the league performance in 2023 which got Powell the sack. As I have said, we are worse this year than 2023 by every metric (wins/position/points difference) but you give Burgess a pass and focus on how bad Powell was. I’m not saying it is/was all Powell fault, and I don’t expect you to go back through the archives but if you look at the threads of his appointment and dismissal I put a lot of this at the feet of the decision makers at the club. At the time, we were regularly in the top 4, and the job was to unlock that next gear to go the next step and win it. My point then, and still is, on what basis was Powell selected to do that job. The league outputs are similar this season, which is alarming. But in both situations you look at the aggravating and mitigating factors. Sam’s conduct, Vegas and ref moaning have made our season worse, not better. I think that is a fact. Mitigation, huge chunks of salary cap in the stands for the middle of the season (could be a strength & conditioning thing, could be the quality of training facilities) failed to recruit a second row (is this Chambers, did we gamble on Bateman not getting an NRL deal) and a rough schedule (going to Vegas wouldn’t have been Sam’s choice, winnable games after key cup fixtures) plus we actually made a major final. As it stands, Sam has made 2 of 3 available major finals. But still, won nothing. So it’s a mix bag to review at seasons end, but I think a lot of the outcome will depend on the run in. If we shape up and chase down the 6 and make it, I think there is enough to keep him in for next year. If we miss, it’s a close one and I get it if we do sack him. The equivalent of Powell, the disruption in team selection was largely man made, sacking, loaning and hiring his people who were later dropped or moved around, including his assistant (name I can’t even remember, but was replaced by Marshall after 1 year) Major injuries to key positions were not a contributor. There was no Vegas, with a game a week later that you in hindsight needed to in. No cup quarter, semi or final, again with no fixtures the week after that you needed points from. And we’re splitting hairs over table position without those obstacles. Powell also openly criticised Dean and Thewlis, taking Thewlis “out of the firing line” (which he said publicly) against Huddersfield only to pick him again the week after at Wigan. Dean never played again. The reasons/contributors/excuses just aren’t there for Powell. There was not a performance to point to and say “when my plan is played to, we compete against big teams” whereas Sam can do that. And to answer a point from above, it’s not justifying who bad we are now because we’ve been worse. It’s still about who can take us from a plucky “also ran” to a winner. With Williams, Dufty, Sneyd, Walker and Currie all fit next week and beyond, Sam has an opportunity to get a song out of this team and show us and the board that he’s worthy of another year. The ball is in their court now, and by dumb luck alone if we do pick up we could somehow still stumble into the 6 and get a free shot at it with no expectation. | | |
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| Player Coach | 14893 | Warrington Wolves |
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| Jun 2006 | 19 years | |
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| BarbedWire2:
The reasons/contributors/excuses just aren’t there for Powell. There was not a performance to point to and say “when my plan is played to, we compete against big teams” whereas Sam can do that.
And to answer a point from above, it’s not justifying who bad we are now because we’ve been worse. It’s still about who can take us from a plucky “also ran” to a winner. With Williams, Dufty, Sneyd, Walker and Currie all fit next week and beyond, Sam has an opportunity to get a song out of this team and show us and the board that he’s worthy of another year. The ball is in their court now, and by dumb luck alone if we do pick up we could somehow still stumble into the 6 and get a free shot at it with no expectation.
You make a good argument and I may agree with you. I will just challenge some points. 1. "When my plan is played to we compete against big teams" - this may hold true if you ignore 2024 CC Final against Wigan (CC) - lost 2024 Hull KR (league) - lost 2024 Leigh away (league) - lost 2025 Wigan at Vegas (league) - embarrassed 2025 Leigh away (league) - lost 2025 Wigan at Magic (league) - lost 2025 Hull KR home (league) - lost 2. Agree with the 2nd point. Of course it will take a leap of faith as those players were all present at the start of 2025 when we lost against the likes of Wakefield and Hull FC at home. I am more concerned why we look a different team in the Challenge Cup games than we do in the league. It's like the team really focus on that and give everything whereas the league games are not treated like that. If we performed in the league as we did in the Challenge Cup we would be comfortably in the top 4. Indeed if those 4 cup game wins this season were exchanged for readily achievable wins over Wakefield (Home), Hull (Home), Huddersfield (home), Castleford (away) we would be 4th now and well set for the playoffs. But interesting times and some hard games ahead. We will see. | | |
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| Wires71:BarbedWire2:
The reasons/contributors/excuses just aren’t there for Powell. There was not a performance to point to and say “when my plan is played to, we compete against big teams” whereas Sam can do that.
And to answer a point from above, it’s not justifying who bad we are now because we’ve been worse. It’s still about who can take us from a plucky “also ran” to a winner. With Williams, Dufty, Sneyd, Walker and Currie all fit next week and beyond, Sam has an opportunity to get a song out of this team and show us and the board that he’s worthy of another year. The ball is in their court now, and by dumb luck alone if we do pick up we could somehow still stumble into the 6 and get a free shot at it with no expectation.
You make a good argument and I may agree with you. I will just challenge some points. 1. "When my plan is played to we compete against big teams" - this may hold true if you ignore 2024 CC Final against Wigan (CC) - lost 2024 Hull KR (league) - lost 2024 Leigh away (league) - lost 2025 Wigan at Vegas (league) - embarrassed 2025 Leigh away (league) - lost 2025 Wigan at Magic (league) - lost 2025 Hull KR home (league) - lost 2. Agree with the 2nd point. Of course it will take a leap of faith as those players were all present at the start of 2025 when we lost against the likes of Wakefield and Hull FC at home. I am more concerned why we look a different team in the Challenge Cup games than we do in the league. It's like the team really focus on that and give everything whereas the league games are not treated like that. If we performed in the league as we did in the Challenge Cup we would be comfortably in the top 4. Indeed if those 4 cup game wins this season were exchanged for readily achievable wins over Wakefield (Home), Hull (Home), Huddersfield (home), Castleford (away) we would be 4th now and well set for the playoffs. But interesting times and some hard games ahead. We will see. I agree to a point, we haven’t won in those big events. Wembley last year we choked, despite starting really well. If I’m being brutally honest, one thing I would question is kicking 2 points when they are down a middle forward and we’re only down a fullback. That decision gave Wigan a chance to get off the ropes and they never really looked back. Almost as maddening as the panicked play where we throw the ball wide early in the set 13 vs 12 four minutes in and lose Dufty to the sin bin. We choked. But, that didn’t happen this year. We were in control for long periods but ultimately got beat by a) a superb team who defended relentlessly and b) an individual mistake. Without forensically analysing each game, it’s tough to say what went wrong with each, but what we can say with absolute certainty is that we’ll never win anything if we don’t learn some lessons. Wakefield away for example, we went behind early with a bit of lag from the cup game the week previous. But dragged ourselves into it just before half time. Then we drop the kick off. We had Saints 10-0 down at our place, let the kick off go onto touch. Cup final, failed to defend a kick. Even Cas last week, kick goes through and to a man we stand still, Fitz has a grab at it and nobody else is moving. If my memory was better, I bet there are 10+ times where we have released pressure by failing to defend a kick this year alone. That is my gripe with the coaching, control what’s in your control, practice defending your weaknesses. Sneyd again is an example, anyone doing video on us will spend 90% of the attack time on how to get at Sneyd. We haven’t found a way to protect him yet, despite having an excellent defensive centre who has just been moved to the right alongside an excellent defensive half (Williams). We have got Jake Thewlis, Wrench and Sneyd together who are all vulnerable, and Fitzgibbon who is aggressive and gets up off the line which ultimately exposes them further. This is the first week off we have had though, so it might be useful to work on those relationships and put some quality time on the training field, it’s difficult to do maintenance work on a moving production line. But we need to see some progress on that one, or Sneyd becomes a very expensive special teams player. | | | |
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| Player Coach | 14893 | Warrington Wolves |
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| BarbedWire2:Wires71:BarbedWire2:
The reasons/contributors/excuses just aren’t there for Powell. There was not a performance to point to and say “when my plan is played to, we compete against big teams” whereas Sam can do that.
And to answer a point from above, it’s not justifying who bad we are now because we’ve been worse. It’s still about who can take us from a plucky “also ran” to a winner. With Williams, Dufty, Sneyd, Walker and Currie all fit next week and beyond, Sam has an opportunity to get a song out of this team and show us and the board that he’s worthy of another year. The ball is in their court now, and by dumb luck alone if we do pick up we could somehow still stumble into the 6 and get a free shot at it with no expectation.
You make a good argument and I may agree with you. I will just challenge some points. 1. "When my plan is played to we compete against big teams" - this may hold true if you ignore 2024 CC Final against Wigan (CC) - lost 2024 Hull KR (league) - lost 2024 Leigh away (league) - lost 2025 Wigan at Vegas (league) - embarrassed 2025 Leigh away (league) - lost 2025 Wigan at Magic (league) - lost 2025 Hull KR home (league) - lost 2. Agree with the 2nd point. Of course it will take a leap of faith as those players were all present at the start of 2025 when we lost against the likes of Wakefield and Hull FC at home. I am more concerned why we look a different team in the Challenge Cup games than we do in the league. It's like the team really focus on that and give everything whereas the league games are not treated like that. If we performed in the league as we did in the Challenge Cup we would be comfortably in the top 4. Indeed if those 4 cup game wins this season were exchanged for readily achievable wins over Wakefield (Home), Hull (Home), Huddersfield (home), Castleford (away) we would be 4th now and well set for the playoffs. But interesting times and some hard games ahead. We will see. I agree to a point, we haven’t won in those big events. Wembley last year we choked, despite starting really well. If I’m being brutally honest, one thing I would question is kicking 2 points when they are down a middle forward and we’re only down a fullback. That decision gave Wigan a chance to get off the ropes and they never really looked back. Almost as maddening as the panicked play where we throw the ball wide early in the set 13 vs 12 four minutes in and lose Dufty to the sin bin. We choked. But, that didn’t happen this year. We were in control for long periods but ultimately got beat by a) a superb team who defended relentlessly and b) an individual mistake. Without forensically analysing each game, it’s tough to say what went wrong with each, but what we can say with absolute certainty is that we’ll never win anything if we don’t learn some lessons. Wakefield away for example, we went behind early with a bit of lag from the cup game the week previous. But dragged ourselves into it just before half time. Then we drop the kick off. We had Saints 10-0 down at our place, let the kick off go onto touch. Cup final, failed to defend a kick. Even Cas last week, kick goes through and to a man we stand still, Fitz has a grab at it and nobody else is moving. If my memory was better, I bet there are 10+ times where we have released pressure by failing to defend a kick this year alone. That is my gripe with the coaching, control what’s in your control, practice defending your weaknesses. Sneyd again is an example, anyone doing video on us will spend 90% of the attack time on how to get at Sneyd. We haven’t found a way to protect him yet, despite having an excellent defensive centre who has just been moved to the right alongside an excellent defensive half (Williams). We have got Jake Thewlis, Wrench and Sneyd together who are all vulnerable, and Fitzgibbon who is aggressive and gets up off the line which ultimately exposes them further. This is the first week off we have had though, so it might be useful to work on those relationships and put some quality time on the training field, it’s difficult to do maintenance work on a moving production line. But we need to see some progress on that one, or Sneyd becomes a very expensive special teams player. Yes all fair, but the challenge was to the "Sam gets us up for the big teams". I listed 7 such games in the last 18 months where we lost fairly readily to challenge that preposition of yours. In the act of fairness I omitted the Hull KR CC final loss (as that was a very close game), the Hull KR playoff game loss, and the Wigan home game loss in 2024 where we played a weakened side. They were still losses though which makes 10. All ifs and maybes. The Warrington Guardian archive is full of various coaches over the years talking about learning lessons. I take it with a pinch of salt as the coach cannot say "we aren't good enough 1-17" to consistently perform which we all know to be the case currently. But there is the nagging thought in my mind, and others' mind, that squad strength notwithstanding we dont look particularly well coached this season, nor do we look hard to score against. | | | |
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